**ETA: As of about 4:30PM this afternoon, the video I have been talking about was removed from public access! Yay! I am leaving my post live because many have seen it and already been harmed, and because there are plenty of similar messages out there.**
Wowza. I won't comment on the video itself, you said everything beautifully. But as a priest I want to affirm something you said - it's not only ok to scrutinize priest's words, people have to do it. Especially if those words come from online content. Scrutinizing does not mean distrust or disagreement, but, on average, a priest is wrong as often as any other person (including in theology).
Again, as a priest, I think that us priests have a sickness that leads us to teach and moralize on everything. A priest is not above the people; rather, he is from among the people. The people choose him (even if it's through a bishop), and put him in front of the whole community to lead them in prayer and serve the Liturgy. That's basically it. Very few are wise enough to teach. As the internets is showing us.
Thanks for chiming in on that point, Father Aleksey! ❤️ It's so important people hear that, especially from ordained clergy. Sadly not all clergy encourage this, which can be a real detriment to clergy and laity alike.
This is a great response. You know what else would be a great response—his bishop publicly publishing as thoughtful a response as you just did. I’m grateful for the clergy who have come here in support and with humility. But the men who watch those videos need to hear from higher up that this is not the Orthodox way.
Thank you so much for addressing this. I feel like this video has been following me around the internet and I haven’t had the stomach to watch it. We need more bold, educated voices speaking up for women’s humanity on the Orthodox internets.
You don't need to watch it! I kind of wish I hadn't but here we are... hopefully now that you've read my (Obviously completely objective 😆) summary you get the basic gist.
I make it a point not to watch stuff I know will make me mad, lol... and I try very hard to remind people that the more they watch the crazy stuff, the more the algorithm will show them the crazy stuff but... SMH
this is also true! And why I tend not to comment or voice disagreements on videos or content I think is harmful. Even people posting negative comments tells the algorithm is popular.
An excellent response to what was at BEST an egregious lack of judgment trying to be one of the "cool kids" (Orthodox "coolness" is usually a century behind the times HA!) and at worst a summary representation of how he truly thinks about men and women and his private/catechetical teaching about male/female relations within his parish. We can only pray that the taking down of the video was an indication of a lesson learned, wisdom acquired, and perhaps a change of mind.
Yes, we can hope and pray for this! It's one reason I chose not to mention him by name. Attacks like that keep a record of one's errors on the internet and just leave even less room for people to learn from their mistakes. Thanks for your kind words.
Thank you so much for this. Any priest who claims no one can disagree with or question his views is an immediate red flag🚩I came across one of his videos by chance a few weeks ago and couldn't bear to watch more than a couple of minutes of it. So it didn't surprise me when curiosity got the better of me and I figured out which video you were referring to. I don't know what's worse, the men who lap this up or the women who are brainwashed to believe this about themselves. I'm so grateful that my parish priest and spiritual father here in Greece is the polar opposite of this man.
This is yet another of the self-actualization, "Age of Authenticity," "secularity" (to reference an axe I often grind) that we should all be addressing in ourselves. This is just a particularly troubling example.
This is why I largely avoid orthodoxy online as an inquirer. The priest at my local parish would disagree with the contents of a video like that. I listen to him. He is wonderful, balanced, and kind.
There are so many heartening comments here, so I'm not sure what I can add except to express gratitude to you, Nicole, that you took the time to respond to this in a measured, kind, theologically sound, and thorough way to this video.
I have listened to your podcast series about trauma multiple times and I think a lot about the definition of trauma that you offered there as anything that is too much, too soon, too fast, or not enough (excuse me if this is a poor paraphrase—I'm just going from memory). There is so much distressing news and information flying at all of us at such a fast past in general, that one could argue we are all a little beaten down and maybe even traumatized by the quantity and pace of internet nonsense and scandals (Orthodox or otherwise), such that our natural desire to stand up to this sort of thing or even formulate an appropriate response has given up or gone into hiding.
I didn't hear about this video until I read your article, but in general when I encounter things like this awful video, which others have aptly categorized as garbage, I feel a roiling mix of things inside myself. I feel distressed about it, for sure, but in tension with my distress I recognize instantly that I don't have the time, attention, or emotional bandwidth necessary to properly combat it or speak out against it. I have to recognize my own limits that there are few-to-zero battles that I can fight beyond the tiny sphere of my personal life. So I have learned to just try to move on from stuff like this and let the uncomfortable feelings pass as quickly as possible.
I also relate to the tension you expressed around whether or not responding to this sort of content actually gives it more power and legitimacy than it deserves. I can tell you struggled with that question before deciding to write this and I think you exercised really solid discernment. It's clear that what you wrote is striking a chord with a lot of people, and I hope that it has positive reverberations that go way beyond this particular situation. We need so much more thought and good leadership around the question of ordained clergy platforming themselves online and setting themselves up as spokespeople for the Orthodox faith when they lack the maturity and good sense to do this. So with everyone else I just wanted to say, thank you Nicole!
I attended an Orthodox seminary and saw first hand how human priests can be. To this day, I see a priest as person first. As Orthodox Christians in this day and age, we walk a fine line between truth and heresy.
Honestly, I was perplexed how an Orthodox priest could stoop to this level of generalization and just about derogatory description of women. Thank God, I can read what God has to say about women to cleanse my reading palate.
One of the crazier things is that in some women's groups on FB where Nicole's article has been posted, there are some women who have admitted to liking what he had to say and agreed with him. So internalized misogyny is an ongoing battle. We must keep turning to the Scriptures and Christ Himself for our worth so that we are reminded of Whose image we are created in.
It is such a simple minded analysis. I know plenty of plain women who are not saintly, and many beautiful women of faith. As a mom of young men who are starting to look for Christian wives, this kind of thing is discouraging and muddles the issue. Fr Josiah Trenham's exhortation to become "the kind of person the person you would want to marry, would want to marry" is the best advice i have heard.
Thank you for this thoughtful article- there are many good points, including especially about exercising discernment when it comes to listening to clergy voices. "No one can therefore assume the exclusive right of teaching in the Church. The Spirit is given to all, anointing the Master alone, the Christ." -Vladimir Lossky Also: "Since the Church is catholic in all her parts, each one of her members- not only the clergy but also each layman- is called to confess and defend the truth of tradition; opposing even the bishops should they fall into heresy. A Christian who has received the gift of the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of the Holy Chrism must have a full awareness of his faith: he is always responsible for the Church." -Vladimir Lossky
My fiancé and I both watched the video when it came out. We didn’t think much of it. I shared it with a young adult parish group chat which has a Priest who monitors the chat. A comment came back from an adult in the chat mentioning praise for the Panagia as the Holy woman (10/10 holy) who gave birth to Christ not having to be a nun.
Besides this, I haven’t heard anything else about the video from our priest or anyone else in the chat. Forgive me and may God forgive me for only seeing this now, but I didn’t see anything wrong with the video. When I shared it, I said something like “I found this entertaining and funny”: hardness of heart.
I read some of your article out loud to my fiancé and it helped spur on an hour or so conversation about our relationship. Thank you for sharing this and I’ll send your article on to my parish group chat.
You don't need to apologize for not seeing harm in it at first. We shouldn't have to watch videos from a priest and think to analyze them for spiritual harm or abuse. This is one of the potentially destructive aspects of faith teachings as consumable content. Sometimes we consume things without even realizing what we've just taken in! Plus, I know a number of people who either honestly thought it was satire (it wasnt) or knew it was serious, but thought it was so bad that it was funny. Which... I think laughing at things is one of the ways we process and put things into perspective for ourselves, so I don't think that's terrible either. I'm glad you can see another side to things and that you and your wife were able to have a meaningful conversation about it all. I hope my take was life-giving for you both.
So much deep thought put into this article, much appreciate getting to read it. An aspect I often need to remind myself of is from Psalm 95:8 Harden not your heart - since without Hope there can be no true Faith, which requires trust that God will always prevail even if that seems implausible in our temporal realm. All the best, Tom
**ETA: As of about 4:30PM this afternoon, the video I have been talking about was removed from public access! Yay! I am leaving my post live because many have seen it and already been harmed, and because there are plenty of similar messages out there.**
Yes, please keep your post up because I'll be sharing it with two groups of faithful youngsters.
Thanks, Fr Timothy! And your other comment, maybe on FB. I pray it is helpful.
👏🎉👍
Wowza. I won't comment on the video itself, you said everything beautifully. But as a priest I want to affirm something you said - it's not only ok to scrutinize priest's words, people have to do it. Especially if those words come from online content. Scrutinizing does not mean distrust or disagreement, but, on average, a priest is wrong as often as any other person (including in theology).
Again, as a priest, I think that us priests have a sickness that leads us to teach and moralize on everything. A priest is not above the people; rather, he is from among the people. The people choose him (even if it's through a bishop), and put him in front of the whole community to lead them in prayer and serve the Liturgy. That's basically it. Very few are wise enough to teach. As the internets is showing us.
Thanks for chiming in on that point, Father Aleksey! ❤️ It's so important people hear that, especially from ordained clergy. Sadly not all clergy encourage this, which can be a real detriment to clergy and laity alike.
good words father!
Thank you Father.
This is a great response. You know what else would be a great response—his bishop publicly publishing as thoughtful a response as you just did. I’m grateful for the clergy who have come here in support and with humility. But the men who watch those videos need to hear from higher up that this is not the Orthodox way.
That's something to pray and have hope for, isn't it? I agree.
Thank you so much for addressing this. I feel like this video has been following me around the internet and I haven’t had the stomach to watch it. We need more bold, educated voices speaking up for women’s humanity on the Orthodox internets.
You don't need to watch it! I kind of wish I hadn't but here we are... hopefully now that you've read my (Obviously completely objective 😆) summary you get the basic gist.
I make it a point not to watch stuff I know will make me mad, lol... and I try very hard to remind people that the more they watch the crazy stuff, the more the algorithm will show them the crazy stuff but... SMH
this is also true! And why I tend not to comment or voice disagreements on videos or content I think is harmful. Even people posting negative comments tells the algorithm is popular.
An excellent response to what was at BEST an egregious lack of judgment trying to be one of the "cool kids" (Orthodox "coolness" is usually a century behind the times HA!) and at worst a summary representation of how he truly thinks about men and women and his private/catechetical teaching about male/female relations within his parish. We can only pray that the taking down of the video was an indication of a lesson learned, wisdom acquired, and perhaps a change of mind.
Yes, we can hope and pray for this! It's one reason I chose not to mention him by name. Attacks like that keep a record of one's errors on the internet and just leave even less room for people to learn from their mistakes. Thanks for your kind words.
Thank you so much for this. Any priest who claims no one can disagree with or question his views is an immediate red flag🚩I came across one of his videos by chance a few weeks ago and couldn't bear to watch more than a couple of minutes of it. So it didn't surprise me when curiosity got the better of me and I figured out which video you were referring to. I don't know what's worse, the men who lap this up or the women who are brainwashed to believe this about themselves. I'm so grateful that my parish priest and spiritual father here in Greece is the polar opposite of this man.
Everyone is harmed by these kinds of messages, including the people who make them. ❤️😥
Thanks for addressing this!
This is yet another of the self-actualization, "Age of Authenticity," "secularity" (to reference an axe I often grind) that we should all be addressing in ourselves. This is just a particularly troubling example.
This is why I largely avoid orthodoxy online as an inquirer. The priest at my local parish would disagree with the contents of a video like that. I listen to him. He is wonderful, balanced, and kind.
It's smart to avoid internet Orthodoxy! Glad you have found a priest who can provide good pastoral care.
There are so many heartening comments here, so I'm not sure what I can add except to express gratitude to you, Nicole, that you took the time to respond to this in a measured, kind, theologically sound, and thorough way to this video.
I have listened to your podcast series about trauma multiple times and I think a lot about the definition of trauma that you offered there as anything that is too much, too soon, too fast, or not enough (excuse me if this is a poor paraphrase—I'm just going from memory). There is so much distressing news and information flying at all of us at such a fast past in general, that one could argue we are all a little beaten down and maybe even traumatized by the quantity and pace of internet nonsense and scandals (Orthodox or otherwise), such that our natural desire to stand up to this sort of thing or even formulate an appropriate response has given up or gone into hiding.
I didn't hear about this video until I read your article, but in general when I encounter things like this awful video, which others have aptly categorized as garbage, I feel a roiling mix of things inside myself. I feel distressed about it, for sure, but in tension with my distress I recognize instantly that I don't have the time, attention, or emotional bandwidth necessary to properly combat it or speak out against it. I have to recognize my own limits that there are few-to-zero battles that I can fight beyond the tiny sphere of my personal life. So I have learned to just try to move on from stuff like this and let the uncomfortable feelings pass as quickly as possible.
I also relate to the tension you expressed around whether or not responding to this sort of content actually gives it more power and legitimacy than it deserves. I can tell you struggled with that question before deciding to write this and I think you exercised really solid discernment. It's clear that what you wrote is striking a chord with a lot of people, and I hope that it has positive reverberations that go way beyond this particular situation. We need so much more thought and good leadership around the question of ordained clergy platforming themselves online and setting themselves up as spokespeople for the Orthodox faith when they lack the maturity and good sense to do this. So with everyone else I just wanted to say, thank you Nicole!
I attended an Orthodox seminary and saw first hand how human priests can be. To this day, I see a priest as person first. As Orthodox Christians in this day and age, we walk a fine line between truth and heresy.
Honestly, I was perplexed how an Orthodox priest could stoop to this level of generalization and just about derogatory description of women. Thank God, I can read what God has to say about women to cleanse my reading palate.
One of the crazier things is that in some women's groups on FB where Nicole's article has been posted, there are some women who have admitted to liking what he had to say and agreed with him. So internalized misogyny is an ongoing battle. We must keep turning to the Scriptures and Christ Himself for our worth so that we are reminded of Whose image we are created in.
It is such a simple minded analysis. I know plenty of plain women who are not saintly, and many beautiful women of faith. As a mom of young men who are starting to look for Christian wives, this kind of thing is discouraging and muddles the issue. Fr Josiah Trenham's exhortation to become "the kind of person the person you would want to marry, would want to marry" is the best advice i have heard.
Thank you for this thoughtful article- there are many good points, including especially about exercising discernment when it comes to listening to clergy voices. "No one can therefore assume the exclusive right of teaching in the Church. The Spirit is given to all, anointing the Master alone, the Christ." -Vladimir Lossky Also: "Since the Church is catholic in all her parts, each one of her members- not only the clergy but also each layman- is called to confess and defend the truth of tradition; opposing even the bishops should they fall into heresy. A Christian who has received the gift of the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of the Holy Chrism must have a full awareness of his faith: he is always responsible for the Church." -Vladimir Lossky
My fiancé and I both watched the video when it came out. We didn’t think much of it. I shared it with a young adult parish group chat which has a Priest who monitors the chat. A comment came back from an adult in the chat mentioning praise for the Panagia as the Holy woman (10/10 holy) who gave birth to Christ not having to be a nun.
Besides this, I haven’t heard anything else about the video from our priest or anyone else in the chat. Forgive me and may God forgive me for only seeing this now, but I didn’t see anything wrong with the video. When I shared it, I said something like “I found this entertaining and funny”: hardness of heart.
I read some of your article out loud to my fiancé and it helped spur on an hour or so conversation about our relationship. Thank you for sharing this and I’ll send your article on to my parish group chat.
You don't need to apologize for not seeing harm in it at first. We shouldn't have to watch videos from a priest and think to analyze them for spiritual harm or abuse. This is one of the potentially destructive aspects of faith teachings as consumable content. Sometimes we consume things without even realizing what we've just taken in! Plus, I know a number of people who either honestly thought it was satire (it wasnt) or knew it was serious, but thought it was so bad that it was funny. Which... I think laughing at things is one of the ways we process and put things into perspective for ourselves, so I don't think that's terrible either. I'm glad you can see another side to things and that you and your wife were able to have a meaningful conversation about it all. I hope my take was life-giving for you both.
Glory to God! It has been helpful. Thank you.
Marvelous. Thank you. Thank you so very much.
So much deep thought put into this article, much appreciate getting to read it. An aspect I often need to remind myself of is from Psalm 95:8 Harden not your heart - since without Hope there can be no true Faith, which requires trust that God will always prevail even if that seems implausible in our temporal realm. All the best, Tom
A beautiful verse, and timely! Thanks for sharing that ❤️